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Admin request for Member feedback
For improvements to The Poet's Tree
November 30, 2007
Dear friends,
We've been kicking the tires behind the scenes for the last several months.
We've been following the Poem of the Week and Poem of the Month contests
closely, with an eye on making the rules more stringent. Our goal is to make
our contests less generally competitive, and more artistically competitive.
We appreciate any thoughtful suggestions that you may have.
Likewise, we are considering an overhaul of the review process, and Diamond
Awards for submissions. Very frankly, we have many accomplished poets under
The Tree-- but not all poem submissions merit the ten Diamonds Awards that
almost all poems generally receive. While none of us likes to downgrade our
friend's contributions; in actuality, these generous reviews do nothing at
all to encourage anyone to reach for excellence in artistic expression.
Some members would like us to discard the review process altogether. They
feel that the review process itself is either too competitive in nature, or
that it may lead to misunderstandings between members who might take a
review a little to personally. We understand that, but it is unlikely that
we will dispense with the review process completely.
Instead, we are considering a number of changes including providing two
different avenues for New Submissions. The first route would be something
like, "Submit this poem for popular review." The second avenue would provide
more critical scrutiny for the stout-hearted, "Submit this poem for critical
review."
Diamonds are on our agenda too. Currently, Coins are the hot ticket item.
That is, Coins must be either purchased or earned. Diamonds should really be
the hot commodity, however. We are pursuing thoughts on how we can up the
ante on Diamonds to make their use a little less frivolous to award, and
much more valuable to possess.
At this point nothing is etched in stone. We are seeking input from our
membership in these important areas. I've put this announcement up on New
Publications where it can readily be found by all. Your review comments and
suggestions can be read by all. This may provide food for thought for
subsequent reviewers. Unfortunately, my subsequent comments to review
suggestions cannot be read by everyone.
We wish for this process to be an open and constructive dialog between Admin
and our membership. Accordingly, we may repost some of your comments to this
letter, and my subsequent comments in reply, on The Poet's Tree Gazette so
that all members may read them. Some responses may be edited, or parsed, for
publication on The Poet's Tree Gazette.
We hope that all members under The Poet's Tree continue to write to leave an
indelible, and favorable, impression of themselves on our worldwide
readership.
Keith Allen Scalf
For the Admin
****
Dear Keith,
You have many ideas about how to change or not change things! The only
suggestion I have, is to have the Poem of the Week, open to the same poet
once every three months, and the Poem of the Month open to the same poet
only once a year. It would open it up for many of the others who would not
otherwise get a shot at it, and limit the fierce competition, therefore
directing the thought on READING, WRITING, and REVIEWING as a poet's site
for the betterment of the craft. Just a thought!!!
Many regards and blessings,
Grandneim
***
Dear Grace,
I think what we want to do is prevent consecutive wins... but limit the
ability to turn what should be contests into competitions of persistence.
Thanks Grace!
***
Dear Keith,
I agree with most of the others, the Diamonds have little value to determine
the merits of a poem...good idea to nix 'em.
But I don't agree that we should have to return review for review in order
to post poetry. Some of us don't have the time here as others to be giving
so many reviews and to penalize for that lack of time isn't fair...
The weekly/monthly contests truly seem to be a matter of tenacity, not
talent. Maybe it would be good to have several contests throughout the year,
instead of the weekly/monthly/yearly...in different categories/themes to
enter, where the members vote...I've seen on other sites, where perhaps a
picture is posted and poems entered that are inspired by that
picture...talent has to shine through with something like that.....
The page our poems are on really need to be less hectic...there's so many!!!
And I think there should be a certain number of times a poem could be
re-submitted...that would also help tame the weekly/monthly contests if they
continue......
but all in all, I agree with others that drastic changes aren't
necessary...This site really is the easiest to navigate and a pleasure to be
part of...blessings Keith and good luck...
Glimmer
***
Dear Gayle,
As with most things we enjoy-- we each attach our own meanings and
usefulness to it. And why not? This idea of personalization is what makes a
thing out own.
Central to The Poet's Tree is the path to the New Publication's List. For
some this is a way for them to publish their poetry for their friends to
read, enjoy, and comment on. For others, it is the singular conduit that
allows them to contribute poetry to the archive of the Book that they
assemble with each new contribution.
Many aspiring authors are daunted by the idea of writing their own book, and
the publishing process that goes with it. How do I write a book, they
wonder? What would I possibly say? For those who recognize it for what it
is-- our format was designed exactly for that purpose. We do not have
categories of poems, but rather, Chapters designed to hold compositions
written about a particular theme. Well, isn't that what the contents of any
book hold? It certainly is. Each of our members-- many completely unawares--
have been painlessly writing and editing their book manuscript with every
contribution to New Publications they make.
The starving poet is a recurring image. There is some truth to it, we think.
Poetry appeals to many because it speaks to the soul. It is unfortunate for
the poet, that many souls will more happily pluck poetry from the garden of
thought, rather than from a volume available on the shelf of the local
bookseller. Many of our self published authors would probably agree with
that.
Our intention is improve upon the image of the starving poet by attempting
to help our authors improve the general marketability of their artistic
talent. It's a process and a collaborative effort between ourselves-- and
the visionary authors who share in our quest.
We have learned much about each other in our inaugural year. We have had
some failures-- but each of these has led us to greater accomplishments than
we first imagined. Our contests have been a part of the process. They have
rewarded our members, while providing Admin with a test bed that will enable
us to refine and improve them.
We do not believe that we will ever satisfy personal tastes and prerogatives
where reviews are concerned. We do not currently require members to make
reviews. We do not anticipate that making reviews will ever be a requirement
imposed on our members. The Poet\'s Tree is intended to be as comfortable to
browse as your favorite local bookseller. Readers should freely browse New
Pubs at their leisure, pausing to make a comment here or there whenever they
discover something that resonates with them. Not all reviews are read, not
all reviews are answered, but we feel that sufficient numbers are generated
to indicate to the author that his work has been well received. Enough--as
they say...... is as good as a feast.
Resubmits are costly to our Authors at a cost of (2) Coins per resubmission.
There are any number of reasons why a member may wish to resubmit a poem.
There may be other reasons, but we like to believe that the author feels
that he has written something timely (perhaps timeless) or meaningful-- and
he wishes to share it with a wider audience. New Pubs now provides
additional information that indicates that a composition has been
resubmitted. Readers and reviewers are free to pass over these if they
choose to do so.
The New Pubs list is indeed growing-- but so is our membership and the
proliferation of new submissions that go with them. This is as it should be.
It is a simple matter to add authors you especially like to your Favorite\'s
List. It is easy to browse their new contributions from the contents of
their Books.
I think I've covered all of the bases Gayle. Feel free to contact me on the
message system with any other comments you would like to make.
***
Dear Keith,
I am from poets.com and have been checking out many sites lately. This one
seems to be very user-friendly compared to others.
I think one of the big draws to poets.com is their annual get-together, a
chance for poets to meet each other. That's something you might consider
starting this summer. but something more centrally located than California,
please. Word would spread around and many would want to join here just to be
able to attend and meet their family, friends. Something for you to
consider, or ask for feed-back about it from your members. Congratulations
on a great site.
Always
***
Dear Always,
We've been talking about just such a gathering. Thank you for looking in and
giving us the once over. We always appreciate constructive comments.
Welcome to The Poet's Tree!
***
Keith,
I do agree with Pat, don't fix that which is not broken. The Website is easy
to get around, and understand. I like the Poem of the Week and Month; let
them be chosen by a secret panel of five people each month. Different ones--
I do like for people to review my workto help me, to show where I need to
spell better with English or grammar or whatever it needs. Maybe Diamonds
could be exchanged for Coins? Like 200 Diamonds (mor or less) for one Coin.
Just a thought. Thank you for letting us give our thoughts on The Poet's
Tree.
Nancy (Mattelois)
***
Thank you Nancy,
We've got lots of plans for Diamonds and Coins Nancy.
We might set aside the first three weeks of every month to cull out poem
candidates for Poem of the Month. The last week of the month would be
dedicated to an anonymous Vote for Poem of the Month.
***
Well Keith,
I don't think there is any shortage of opinions on this thought. There's
definitely a variety and all worth consideration by the administration. I
personally read poems for pleasure and because that is how I really learn.
As I type this I have reviewed 5,820 poems so far. Of those, 148 of those
reviews have not been responded to yet. That's OK,I read for my pleasure. I
have been reviewed 1,800 less times but that's OK too. I often choose to
review even authors that do not return reviews. That is my choice. I
personally like the basic setup of this site. If it changed a lot like Old
Blue did-- I would leave it as quickly as I left Old Blue.
If you want to change things, take away the ratings. Let people earn Coins
by reviewing but don't bother rating the reviews. Do away with the Diamonds.
Replace them with a vote for a poem as a Poem of the Month in the review
that would only go to the administration office. That way, if a person
thinks a poem is really one of the best they can vote for it-- while they
review as Poem of the Month. No one would know if their poem was voted for
by a certain reader or not, and the office could count it up at the end.
Diamonds would have no bearing. Do not limit resubmitting. For some, the
message contained in their poem is important, and they want more people to
read their message; so they resubmit for that reason.
Good luck on your decisions, but please do not take the personal out of this
site. Anyone who wants a stuffy site can get it by rejoining the new Old
Blue site.
Good luck!!
Joebirdies
***
Hello Joe,
We contemplate no changes that anyone would call 'radical.'
We do not anticipate making any changes that will require a subscriber to do
anything except comply with our Terms of Use-- that includes making reviews.
Diamond awards and such are trickier. Some members hate 'em, while others
love 'em. We anticipate keeping them--- but limiting the number that any
member has to distribute in a given month.
Many reviews go unanswered for any number of reasons. The biggest reason is
that some members have not renewed their subscriptions. Of course this means
that the reviews will never be read. We are working on an interface that
will allow members to print the reviews they wish to save. We will allow
time for them to be saved, and then dump them from our Data Base.
We've worked hard to develop the current format. We are rather proud of what
we have accomplished. We have no desire to muck around with what generally
works very well. Our goal is to fine tune some of our features in a way that
will attract and hold the attention of more accomplished authors-- while
continuing to provide a comfortable and congenial atmosphere for novice
writers.
***
Thank you Keith,
For letting us join in this important discussion. I have read of so many
good suggestions given here. I personally don't care for Diamonds-they are
only paper Diamonds. You can't cash them in & you can't trade them--Useless!
I always give 10 Diamonds - due to the work that is involved in presenting a
poem. Even a simple one. I am only interested in the review of my poem--that
is helpful and I have had many suggestions that have improved my work-(I
think). Does it hurt my feelings? --Heck no,
I welcome any help-we continue learning until the day we die. I'm not dead
yet.
Hugs, Billie
***
Dear Billie,
Every day is a good day when you are on the right side of the sod, I say! We
think we've got a pretty good handle on where we will go from here. The
feedback from our members has been excellent.
Thank you Billie-- you'll always be a diamond to me.
***
Keith,
I agree with Pat. I don't understand why people object to a re-post.
Sometimes they hit that back page so fast I miss really good ones. We can
only review them once, no matter how many times they come through. I read a
lot of poems but I only review ones that speak to me. If I don't like a poem
it doesn't mean it isn't good, so I don't review. So I am guilty of giving
10. I have met many dear friends on this site and I would hope I get an
honest review from them. If I misspell a word I would hope that they know me
well enough to tell me so. If a sentence isn't right offer a suggestion. I
for one appreciate it. I think everyone should if they are sincere about
wanting a review. I don't know anything about the Poet of the Week or Month
so I won't comment. However, I loved Aki's poem. She richly deserved it.
I'll end by saying, Lord, grant Keith wisdom to figure this out. lol.
Wilma (Dickson)
***
Dear Wilma,
Fear not, for I am a fount of wizdumb. Thank you Wilma, we've gotten a lot
of valuable input. A solution is nigh that should please all
***
Hi Keith!
Thanks for this input. I do read a lot of poems that I don't think much of,
and only review the ones that I appreciate. Hence most of the poems that I
do review receives the maximum accolade.
Maggie
***
Thank you Maggie,
With plenty of material on New Pubs to chose from, why wouldn't you read and
review what appeals to you? Sound advice, I think.
***
Dear Keith,
I think you have a great idea here Keith. Poems should all be reviewed and
awarded on merit. Too many times, the awards are the result of a popularity
contest rather than the merits of a poem. I gladly, and right now, declare
that ALL my poems I submit should be placed on the "Published for submission
to a critical review." That is what we are here for. To learn and to grow as
poets. As long as the reviews are not frivolous just to have something to
say.
:) Emil
***
Thank you Emil.
That's why we propose having to different paths to New Pubs. Many of our
members desire the camaraderie of merely expressing themselves-- and that is
indeed a worthy thing of laudable merit. Many others though, yearn for the
kind of thoughtful reviews and practical critique that may help them to hone
their artistic prowess. Our desire is to have both, and to promote a
harmonious venue that encourages the happy flux of creative industry.
***
Hey Keith,
I have to say that I agree with Ikcgrant. A secret member should be asked to
review the poem of the week. As every reader takes something different from
each poem. I love being part of the tree and quite like the idea of two
different categories when submitting poems.
Love and light my friend and Happy Holidays
Agnes
***
Hello Agnes,
I do not think we will allow any member to become the goat... secret, or
not. We may make Admin selections, i.e. "The Publisher recommends" or "The
Publisher Selects" --something like that. We're still kicking the tires.
Perhaps, "Submit this poem for critical review" may provide the means to
winnow the many down to a deserving few. We'll just have to see how it goes
and monitor the results carefully.
Thanks Agnes dear!
***
Keith,
You won't like it, but I give what I think it merits, always...and think
nothing should change except there should be a limit as to how many times a
poem can be re-submitted, the winners put no new ones on their selection
page, and keep racking up the Diamonds because they review you, and in
return you review them-- but when their new, quote unquote already has 930
diamonds..........when does it stop? That is the unfair part.....but making
the guidelines more stringent is not going to get it for me, I review as I
see fit, and I like that freedom of choice.
Holiday Blessings
kjm (KarenJeanMarie)
***
Dear Karen,
We will never require our members to review poetry of any particular
individual. There are plenty of poems by a wide variety of authors on New
Pubs. My advice, is that you browse New Pubs and review only the material
that you enjoy. The authors that you review, and the material that you
review is entirely up to you.
***
Hmmmm. smiles. Keith,
I think the way to make the Diamonds more valuable is to limit the amount of
say 9, and 10 Diamond reviews each member has at their disposal each month.
Say your membership entitles you to eight 10 Diamond reviews, and 15 nine
Diamond reviews each month that you are allowed to award. Then, only those
you really deem worthy of those accolades will you award them to. When you
realize you have only a limited quantity to award. This will eliminate the
campaigning to some degree, and if not, that's okay too-- because even
though you may receive a volume of reviews from campaigning they won't all
be top accolades just by the numbers.
Also I do think that the poems that receive the top accolades (not numbers
of Diamonds by volume, but the ones who receive the most 10 Diamond reviews)
should go into the weekly and monthly pool and then the reader base should
get to vote on which ones they think are deserving of the title. I think
that will avoid the numbers game entirely and it will encourage creativity
at the highest level.
I am always afraid to offend, and I have been criticized in the past for
giving honest reviews. Not everyone wants to know how they can improve. Some
people just need love and support, and a place their voices can be heard. I
think if we play our cards right we can have both.
I don't think there should be a limit on resubmissions. I think it should be
easy to list your work, and a little harder to attain the top accolades. I
leave some of my poems on because I feel they are solid representations of
my work, especially for new members who come and are unfamiliar with me in
particular. Maybe there should be a number attached to the amount of poems
you are allowed to keep up at one time. I rotate mine, and I know many other
poets do as well. I think when our online catalog is too large it is
overwhelming to poets visiting our pages. So, maybe there does need to be a
cap on the number of poems you can keep up on New Publications at one time.
I think maybe no more than 50 poems at a time. Limiting the numbers will
also serve to have poets think about their own works, and which they deem
the best of the best. I think that is healthy too. Thank you for allowing me
to weigh in on this.
Hugs, Dani
***
Hello Dani,
I think you are on the right track in putting a limit on the number of
Diamonds members are able to award in a given month. This will compel our
members to exercise a bit more discretion as they make Awards.
We plan to add filters that will prevent using the message system to ask for
reviews. Offenders may find their poem placed in an automatic 24Hr
'time-out' where it will not be able to receive reviews.
Only poems that have received a specific number of Diamond Awards would be
eligible for Poem of the Week and Poem of the Month. The anonymous votes of
our members would ultimately decide the Contests.
It is the prerogative of our members to resubmit poems to the New
Publication\'s List. There are any number of reasons that motivate an author
to resubmit a poem, but at a cost of (2) Coins per resubmission, our authors
generally seem willing to pay the toll.
We cannot limit the number of poems submitted to the New Publication\'s
List-- that would force us to discriminate over which poems are available to
read. Our active membership regulates New Pubs by reading and reviewing the
poems that resonate with them. This, we think, is how it should be.
Should The New Publication\'s List ever grow wildly out of hand-- we will
institute a special reviewing day to pare things down to a manageable size.
On such days we will suspend submissions to New Pubs, and offer special
prize incentives to reviewers.
Thanks Dani, for your thoughtful suggestions!
***
For one, I do agree with you Keith--
The Diamonds should be the more sought at reward, and not as easy to
obtain...this does involve some pondering here though as to the "how to
achieve not too easily though as a reward", indeed...thank you for sharing
this bit of info too...blessings for a happy holiday season!!...all the best
to you and yours......
xoxo...B (enchanted poetess)
***
Dear Barbara,
We are working towards subtle changes in our format that we believe will
improve things. Thank you Barbara, I always appreciate your input.
***
Keith,
Has anyone considered using a blind format for these poems of the week or
month? Members getting a list, I don't personally care about how many, of
poems with no authors name attached and then review them for their
worthiness and not whose poem got the most reviews.
I've never personally cared how many diamonds I've collected. Of course I'm
sure a lot of people do. The only way you can get anyone to look at your
poetry is to review theirs. That's the way all these sites work. I would
look at other peoples work if I got no reviews back. Got to have my poetry
fix.
I like the idea of a critical review list. Please don't make that review
process to clumsy, if you decide to go with that suggestion. I would like to
have the opportunity to delete old reviews if they are not responded to
after a certain number of days on the list. I've got more than a few of
those.
Bob
***
Hi Bob,
I'm not sure I like the idea of either anonymous submissions or reviews.
Anonymity brings out the beast in some people, and we would be forced into a
position of taming the beast, or dribbling him out the door. Ugh!
I do not foresee putting a lot of technical requirements on reviewers who
wish to scrutinize poems submitted for critical review. We will monitor the
process to see how it goes. If it is received well, and if it achieves what
we hope it will-- then we may put a couple of red-inkers on staff to really
give 'em a once over. (that is-- for those who desire it)
Early in 2008, we will be providing an interface that will allow you to
download your entire Book in one shot. Reviews too, if you wish. You\'ll
also be able to organize your personal chapters in any manner you wish. You
will be able to upload (1) JPEG image for each of your Book's Chapters, and
you will be able to put your poems in any order you wish.
You\'ll also be able to upload audio for each of your prologues in your
book. We may make it possible for other members to download audio MP3s of
your poetry-- and pay you a royalty for the privilege.
Pretty interesting stuff, we think
***
Keith,
Thank you for the opportunity to express our feelings and ideas here. Here's
my two cents worth... I feel that we should be required to respond to all
reviews received before being able to submit a new poem. It seems only fair
to those who have taken the time to write reviews.
I do not think Coins should be available to purchase to submit poetry. This
enables poets to submit without reviewing. I do not know what to suggest
regarding Diamonds. I do not feel qualified to give less than 10 to anyone,
nor do I feel that their effort is ever worth less than 10 Diamonds.
I'm another one that is terrible at finding the right words to express
myself when writing reviews. I don't know how to write in the more
restricted formats, but I still love reading them just the same and I tell
poets that in the reviews that I write. My excitement comes more from
reading the comments left for my poems than Diamonds.
There are a few things that "Old Blue" had that I miss, and would love to
see here. First, Poetry in Motion. I looked forward to that each morning
when I first logged on. It was fun, and even was the inspiration for what
resulted in some of my better work when I had writer's block.
I would rather see a prize awarded for Poetry in Motion contests than Poem
of the Week/Month. I also miss the ranking system used on Old Blue. Like
many that are now here at The Tree, I was a Poet Laureate there. I also
thought the certificates, patches, decals, and coins awarded for reaching
particular ranks were nice a touch. I still have all of mine.
I can't end this without saying that I do love being here. As has already
been said, there is a warmth and a comfort in being here like Old Blue had.
This is not just The Poet's Tree... the people here are my Family Tree.
Best wishes always,
Kim
(poetic chaos)
***
Hi Kim,
You've covered a lot of ground, so I will try to address everything point by
point. It is very unlikely we will legislate how reviews are made, if they
are made at all. I've heard a lot of members comment on the 'fairness' of
returning reviews. Here's how we feel about that:
Many members have a preconceived notion of how they feel the Website ought
to work. Many feel that reviews should be returned in kind, and a certain
code of conduct has erroneously developed around the idea. To some, it just
seems to be common courtesy to return reviews on a one-for-one basis. We
understand that perfectly. We also feel that the reasoning is a little
flawed upon closer scrutiny.
Why? Well, there are a couple of issues. First and foremost, The Poet's Tree
is a friendly place to be. We'll do our utmost to keep it that way. We have
two important criteria that all members must comply with. The first, is Our
Terms of Use that governs the use of the Website. The second, is polite
conduct amongst our members as they interact when they are logged-in, and in
their communications with Admin. Beyond that-- we are really pretty
flexible, and have a 'hands-off' policy in most instances.
It is important to remember that members subscribe for any number of
reasons. Is a membership less valid if a subscriber posts only one poem per
month? What if a member simply wants to use our easy to use interface to
compile his book for publication? What if our subscriber is not ready to try
his hand at composition, but merely loves to browse and read New
Publications? Each of these are valid and worthwhile uses of The Poet's
Tree.
Look at it this way…
I spend a lot of time in bookshops like Barnes and Noble. In fact, I have a
membership card there, as I am sure that many of our members do. I browse a
lot. I buy a lot. But you know, there are many occasions when I browse and
read for hours-- and buy nothing at all. Barnes and Noble staff have yet to
meet me at the door to tell me that on my previous two or three visits that
I bought nothing. It is unlikely they ever will. And so it is with The
Poet's Tree. Members, even Free Trial members, are free to browse the site
at will. A subscriber may choose to submit a poem, or not. He may choose to
make reviews or not. The choice is his, and it should be; we think. You may
have a particular favorite poet on the site whose work you love to read and
review. Is that poet's work suddenly less lovely because he or she does not
review your work in kind? We think not… but you may decide to forego the
pleasure of continuing to enjoy that author's work. That is your choice,
though it may be an unfortunate choice. You must decide that for yourself.
We all do.
Coin sales provide an important and necessary revenue stream that has
contributed to keeping our subscription fees very low. There are no ads or
come-ons under The Poet's Tree. Coin sales and subscription fees currently
account for 100% of our operating revenues.
One does not need to be qualified to make a credible review. We have only
four scoring criteria. Most of us can score on a numerical basis if we
choose to do so. There are any number of reasons why we do not. Admin has
plans to retool the review process slightly to encourage more honesty in the
review process that will be beneficial not only to or contributors, but to
the credibility of The Poet's Tree forum. The comments that reviewers make
are satisfying to all members. We encourage all members to take a little
extra time to make thoughtful review comments that are helpful to our
authors.
Our Magnetic Attractions Contest has had several false starts. We have had
trouble developing an operating script that is both original and dependable.
Frankly, it makes me crazy. It's tougher than you might imagine. We are on
it… our members want it, and we do too.
Our Poem of The Week and Poem of The Month contests are being revamped for
2008. They will have tougher rules to prevent 'working' the site for an
unfair advantage. The idea, of course, is to promote excellence in writing;
rather than the persistence of competitive self-interest.
Ranking of poets is something we will look carefully at. If we rank poets at
all it will be upon some honest criteria of artful merit, and not mere
tenure on the Website.
I hope I have replied to most of your thoughtful comments. Feel free to
share my response amongst your friends. If I have missed something, or if
you wish for me to clarify my thoughts further-- just message me, and I will
respond quickly.
***
Dear Keith,
Firstly, I find it disheartening that poets can publish many new poems
without being considerate enough to recognize reviews received - I
personally have 50 reviews (which I really put effort into) not even read -
should you not consider that you can't publish until all reviews are
recognized, or at least read?
Secondly, I find the openness and friendliness of the site very welcoming -
and yes, when you've made friends, it is hard to give them low marks even
though you can point out bad language or spelling errors, a lot of people
get on their high-horse - I then rather don\'t review. I belong to another
site where it is very cold and critical, and you have to crit the poem for
the form, language, punctuation etc. etc. - I see a lot of our poets have
left here to go there. It becomes so painful that you actually don\'t want
to do a review. This is sharing of poetry and friendship. This is a place
under the tree with cool shadows. This has the friendship of ole blue.
I personally believe if you start with hectic changes, you may destroy the
friendship and camaraderie.
I think admin on this site are qualified enough to choose, say 5 poems, and
then let the poets vote.
Aegirs Datter
***
Hi Suzanne,
It's unlikely that we will make an administrative decision over how
frequently reviews are made.
Reviews show as 'unread' on your page until they have been commented on,
even after they have been read. Of course, you will not receive reviews from
members who have allowed their subscriptions to lapse, or who have declined
to renew. We will be deleting a great many of these 'dead' reviews in the
near future.
We do not intend to make radical changes to The Poet's Tree. Rather, it is
our intention to make thoughtful changes to improve upon the features that
are already in place. We will also be adding other features that will
enhance our format in ways that are useful to more serious authors who seek
to be published.
Steady on-- I say...
I always appreciate your kind and thoughtful observations and comments.
***
Dear Keith,
I'd like to see the weekly contest scrapped. Too often, writers just work
the site, soliciting reviews in order to gather enough Diamonds to make Poem
of the Week. Many, many, better poem are overlooked. People do seem to love
a contest though, so the monthly one is a good idea.
However, I would rather see Admin do the choosing, I have complete faith
that the team is qualified enough to do so, and it could eliminate the above
mentioned. Alternatively, Admin could choose a dozen of so poems they think
worthy, and let the users vote.
As for the Diamond thingy...there's something that there is not really a
true solution for. Great friendships have been forged on this site, and
friends are nearly always going to give friends 10 Diamonds. Another reason
the Diamond count is so high, is, I believe, that there are a number who
place no real stock by them, so they automatically award 10 Diamonds--
leaving their comments as the real meat of the review.
Personally, I would like to see the Diamonds done away with altogether; then
we may see some more honest critiquing of work, but I think the mob would
have your head if that were to happen!
For whatever reasons, Diamonds seem to be actively sought by most here.
That's my experience. However, there is also a large number who crave
honest, helpful reviewing, So, I quite like the idea of being able to post
for that. It could go a long way to offering what's needed by those who are
a little tired of receiving stellar reviews for work they know it not 10
Diamond material.
Yes, there are those here who do not take kindly to less than glowing
praise, but there are also those who are made of stern stuff, and will
certainly not crumple if offered advice.
Whatever changes come about, I'd hope that the heart of this site, which is
a very real community feel (these people really care for other) isn't
affected.
I know there's more I wanted to say, but I forget what! If I remember, I'll
message you.
Cheers Keith, and thanks for the chance to input.
Leannefnt
***
Thank you Leanne,
Our contests are going to have more stringent criteria in 2008.
We've thought a lot about putting up a group of poems under "Editor's
Choice\" or something like that. The fact is, I think we have a number of
members who would conclude that admin has a vested interest in our
selections. In fact, that may well be true on some levels-- we do have a
vested interest in promoting artistic excellence. Our hope, however, is to
encourage our members to raise the bar themselves, and in doing so, to
strive for the best poetic expression that they are capable of. To that end,
we will probably provide two paths to New Publications. The first will be to
submit for 'general' review. The second path, will be for the stout-hearted
who really desire appropriate feedback. We will monitor this route to New
Publications to ensure that reviewers are providing the useful helps that
authors desire, and not merely flattering atta-boys!
***
Dear Keith,
I agree with Suzanne and Mollie, two of my favorite poetesses. The review
process as it stands, stinks. There definitely should be a penalty of sorts
for those who just happily take their reviews and never return them. It
indicates lack of respect and care for others feelings!
I am very excited at the possibility of categories for poetic literature. It
is upsetting to receive a review that I know the reviewer has no knowledge
of the context.
Let's get rolling!!
prettyduck
***
Hello Sylvia,
Hmmmm.... I'm not sure the current review process stinks. It is what it is,
however-- and our members have made it into whatever it is. Saying that, we
intend to make some changes that ought to improve the quality of reviews
that some desire, while providing an alternate pathway for other members who
like things fine just the way they are. We'll monitor the site carefully and
see how it goes after that.
***
Dear Keith,
I think some of the ideas you talk about sound super! I wonder why you chose
to block messages from me. I kind of feel offended. I certainly did not mean
to ask stupid questions, or bother you at all! Please accept my apology for
whatever I did wrong.
Sable
***
Dear Sable,
If I blocked you at all Sable, please know that it was either a glitch that
we have been experiencing.... or that I am a complete dork. (rumor has it,
that I am, in fact, a dork)
I never, n-e-v-e-r block members intentionally.
***
Dear Keith,
Yes, I do agree that there are some changes that are due for the better, and
this is a great way to get feedback...and I do believe your comments when
you say that most poems are given 10 Diamonds...But I think that many of us
on here don't really care so much about Diamonds, its more of having your
piece read, and the review within...as for poem of the week and such, it
seems the winner is the one who reposts their piece the most...just my
thoughts...
ROB / ShyThunder
***
Thank you Rob,
Under the current scheme, we have indeed had winners who have won either by
reposting and/or requesting reviews.
Our current rules allow for both. We may encode a 'filter' which limits
review requests by our members. We have no problem with reposts that allow
for a poem to reach a broader readership.
Many members are ambivalent about Diamond Awards, while others are
passionate about them. We are considering a scheme that will cause Diamonds
to be a bit more precious to have... and to award.
***
Dear Keith,
Personally I've always thought that the Poem of the Week/Month is more like
a popularity contest. I think that it should be redesigned where the poets
submit an entry and then possibly the administration votes on the winner.
That may involve a bit too much work, so possibly just have a Poem of the
Month instead of doing so on a weekly basis. I don't feel the contest should
be based on the number of Diamonds received, because there are a number of
poets the resubmit over and over again to achieve that goal..... that is not
winning based on the quality of the work.... it's merely winning based on
the number of Diamonds received.
I also agree with changing the review process. I feel for those less
experienced writers like myself.... I learn nothing from receiving 10
Diamonds all the time, and the good reviews that go with them, when even I
know my writing is not up to an excellent standard. But-- I also know from
past experience, that if you give a poet less than 10 Stars they take
offense. So, I for one like the idea of having a choice as to how we submit
our poetry. I appreciate honest constructive reviews as long as they are
helpful and not bashing.
Going back to the contest.... I've seen other work that was worthy of
winning, but because they fell short a few Diamonds they did not win, and
the person that did win, work was not as good. I also know, that because
some poets are better known on this site than others, their chances are
greater each week or month, which doesn't make it fair for those that are
not constantly patting themselves on the back.
Thanks for all that you do, and asking for our advice.
Debi
***
Thank you Debi,
Each and every member has the ability to apply his/her own brakes to members
who 'work' the site for reviews. Scoring a poor poem with 10 Diamonds in
every scoring category is something that ought not to take place; though it
does. The winning poems have each progressed to the top, not merely because
they have been resubmitted, or because requests for reviews have been
solicited; but because reviewers scored them high out-of-hand by awarding
more Diamonds than some poems deserved, (in some instances) -- or by
fulfilling the request for a review-- and feeling obliged to score the
authors poem high. That is unfortunate...
Every poem submitted to New Pubs is automatically eligible for a contest
win. Reviewers have the singular power to advance or deny any poem\'s
ability to win. We request that our members accept a bit of personal
responsibility and discernment before they make frivolous Diamond Awards.
***
Dear Keith,
I would love to see revisions to the contests. I think they are not designed
to motivate creativity. I don't think it is important to have a monetary
weekly "winner" because it sets up a race-like situation. It is too easy for
a competitive poet to work the site for reviews and the artistry is lost to
a numbers count. The Diamond rating is also not working as a useful, helpful
tool. I would like to see anonymous reviews so there would be no crumpled
feelings. An idea for contests would be to have a new categorized contest
each week where poems could be submitted to a separate list and members
could vote for their favorite. One of my favorite things to do is review as
many pieces as I can because it opens up my own creativity--it's not done
just to gather Coins. I also think there should at some point be a limit to
how many times a poem is resubmitted. I appreciate having the opportunity to
voice suggestions and I hope this is helpful. I will return to read others
ideas. Thank you.
Sue
***
Dear Sue,
The Contests were put up in good faith this year, to encourage the
contributions of our membership. They were never intended to be a
competitive race, though some members have seen them as that. They will be
revised soon, but in subtle ways that we feel will level the playing field.
Our goal is to encourage our members to submit work worthy of merit-- and
reward those who achieve it. This can be done in a manner that is both
encouraging and enjoyable for all members.
We will probably add a filter that limits resubmissions of a particular poem
to no more than two or three in a given week. Likewise we may add a filter
that catches excessive review requests. Offenders may be subject to a 24
hour time-out from receiving reviews. These two changes would, by
themselves, greatly improve the chances of poems that generally linger on
the sidelines while others sprint for the finish.
Thoughtful comments all. Thank you Sue. We will be evaluating all of the
suggestions we receive. Members can be confident that we will incorporate
the best of them in our future plans.
Thank you very much!
***
Dear Keith,
This is a very welcome invitation to express our ideas.. Every serious
member will embrace it warmly.
My own thoughts on the subject have left me somewhat in a whirl as to what
to do in the respect of giving Diamonds. I settled on the idea of awarding
them for effort and goodwill rather than skill, feeling that perhaps, as you
have suggested here, a two tier plan might help. The critical reviews I
think should be anonymous... We are all human after all and we can be
influenced by our own fondness for another member…wishing to help, but not
to lose their friendship in the process...
Where a rather tempting prize is offered, perhaps the human element again
creeps in. Some may feel the need to augment the content of their coffers at
this time of year so it's a question of dog eat dog and every poet for
himself. :)
Once a year I think that should be OK...It's like a Christmas gift to the
winner for effort and tenacity, both worthwhile characteristics to have.
We are a friendly bunch of people with a healthy respect for each other. We
all want the Tree to grow, so I for one look forward to 2008 with all the
excitement of one of the children on the New Children's site....Let the good
times roll...!!!!
Mollie..
***
Thank you Mollie,
Everything is on the table as of now. The idea of total anonymity of
critical reviewers may provoke a few to be over zealous in their commentary.
Whatever we do, we will not tolerate reviewers who confuse 'scathing' with
'helpful.'
Our task, is to promote the idea of helpful and informative reviews that can
encourage our more serious writers to improve their craft.
This is important to reinforce the credibility of our forum, and also to
encourage the development of writers who have something marketable to
express. After all, Odyssey Press Inc. was established to develop and
promote the work of authors who may have been discouraged by other
publishers. As you know, Odyssey Press intends to underwrite 100% of the
publishing costs for authors who meet our criteria.
There is a lot of competitive interaction between our members and other
sites that they also belong to. Admin pays little attention to what other
Websites do. Our stance is to go our own way, and break new ground for
others to follow. Or not.
Mollie, you've described our preliminary contest(s) correctly. In our
inaugural year, we thought to provide a bonus to our members that could
exceed their subscription fees. Several of our winners have won prize money
that has far exceeded their subscription costs. A few members who have left
us for greener pastures, continue to be eligible for our annual prize. Some
of our members may be uncomfortable with that fact. We are rather proud of
it.
Our intention is to continue to develop a forum that invites the
participation of poets around the globe. We will continue to do our part to
make The Poet's Tree a friendly place to congregate. We will also do
everything in our power to promote and compensate writers who wish to
establish an enduring legacy for themselves in print.
So-- please talk about this amongst your friends. I'm sure their are a great
many good ideas out there.
Feel free to message me at any time with your thoughts.
Kindest regards,
Keith Allen
***
Dear Keith,
Well now, first I'd like to say that having your family under The Tree voice
their opinions is wonderful because it shows that your are secure in our
unity.
Many of us are like family, as we come from our previous home that we
lovingly call, "Old Blue"..We have traveled many avenues and we finally
settled here, after experiencing many different Websites. Some of us are on
a couple of different sites also, not because we especially like those other
sites-- but to stay close to our other family members. That shows how tight
we are. But ya know what Keith--be proud-- as we call The Tree our home. We
get a certain feeling here that the others don't offer. We as writers, are
all different; some educated in the field, some self taught, but ya know--
we do mesh together well, the educated ones teach the less educated many
things we wouldn't have learned before.
Personally, I liked the way we were graded lets say on Old Blue...we worked
our way up the ranks to our levels, and with a great deal of work I made
National Poet Laureate. I liked that system, but some didn't...the scales
will always tilt in someone's favor.
As for your Poem of the Week and Poet of the Month, I like that. I never
really worked toward it, but when I got it and Gabrielle contacted me, I was
elated. That to me, is a plus to this site.
As for your repost system, I like that also; as so many times a piece will
be so popular that you can miss it entirely...and trust me I am on site here
often enough to know...I spend sometimes 6 to 8 hours here a day! Yep! I do!
We love to write, Keith. We have a great community here, and just so ya
know-- I see it growing rapidly in the near future; but ya didn't hear that
from me! I really feel what we have here is very fair, no strict rules, and
that's important, trust me. Unlike what some might say, we do not and I
repeat, do not work for high ratings here, we embrace each other as we
should because we all write in our own style, and we appreciate each other
by those standards.
Most of all we trust our administration to the Max ...Ya know, I think we
are pretty darn good, and we can all be proud of our unity. Hey, have I
sucked enough?
lo,lo,lol,...See, that's just me being me, and here I am allowed that
freedom-- and that's why we call this "HOME !".
...hugs...Pat
***
Geeze Pat,
I'm going to have to get you a trowel. *wink*
Fine comments Pat. We work very, very hard to achieve our member's
satisfaction. That's important to us, because we have to face you every day.
It's nice to be able to look one another in the eye, don't you think?
Our members make the site what it is. We simply provide a dress code and
some comfortable furniture to lounge in. We'll be moving some furniture
around-- but we have confidence you'll like the changes.
Thanks Pat. Thank you very much!
***
Keith,
Have you considered the fact that most of us give the maximum Diamonds
because we really don't care about them. Perhaps the comment area is really
the part we are looking for. I for one would get rid of Diamonds, stars,
platinum, gold etc and just concentrate on commentary. There is where I
really see the depth of my work. There I see what is good and what is not. I
usually see a lot more in my comments of the review, then in the others
given to me or written to other poems whose commentary I peruse. I think
here is the place where the reviewer can say what they really mean. As there
is veracity to the fact that for some reason poets like to see stars or
Diamonds, then my philosophy is to let them all have their 10. It is of
little import; but the commentary is different. There is where the meat is.
Cole
***
Thank you Cole.
In many ways I tend to agree with you. As a contributor myself, I pay little
attention to the Diamonds I receive-- but that is perhaps because I realize
that what I consider to be my best effort receives the same number of
Diamonds as some of the poor poetry on the site.
I think what we are pursuing is a general maturing of the site in some ways.
Many members can relate the date and time they received their last Diamond.
They are rather emblematic in that way, and our members love them. The trick
is to tighten the Diamond supply in order to curb inflation....
I too, rather enjoy it when my poems are well received. I always look
forward to the review comments especially. It is pleasing to know that one
has written something that effects another in some way. There have also been
any number of occasions when my faithful editors have saved my bacon.
It's all a process. We've just past our first birthday, and are still
toddling around clumsily. Just wait until we finish cutting our teeth.
***
Dear Keith,
There should be no Poem of the Month. The Poem of the Week should be judged
by a secretive member each week, hand him or her five poems to choose from.
The set up now, is to see how many reviews he or she can get, its bad. Many
are getting ready for the 1000.00 dollar give away. The Diamonds and
Postmarks mean nothing.
I love to read poetry, but I suck at reviewing. I have trouble expressing
myself in that manner...we review to get a review... how do we fix that, I
have not got a clue.
Roger (Ikcgrant)
***
Thank you Roger,
It's a pickle, ain't it? I think we are still pretty much committed to both
the Poem of the Week, and Poem of the Month. Our efforts are going to be
directed towards eliminating wholesale requests for reviews in order to
advance a poem to a win, and mechanisms designed to encourage, at the very
least, thoughtful reviews.
It is not necessary to provide a professorial review. All members have the
general ability to distinguish between poor poems-- and good, better, best.
Giving all poems tens Diamonds in each of the four scoring categories
equates 'poor' poems with the 'best' poems. This ought not to be so.
Moreover, our more accomplished authors may find it extremely difficult or
impossible to win our contests on merit alone. This too, ought not to be so.
Of course, we would be unhappy to award our $1000.00 annual prize to an
undeserving poem, but the winner will be chosen by an anonymous poll of our
members who will each cast (1) vote. That should level the playing field.
Of course, we could also adjust our coding in a manner that would make each
review anonymous, while still awarding Postmarks to reviewers. Perhaps this
would eliminate fear of retribution that might be of concern to some
members.
I appreciate your comments. Please feel free to message me further on our
message system, or by contacting me at
**admin@thepoetstree.com*<admin@thepoetstree.com>
*
***
Dear Keith,
My thoughts are that the Poem of the Week, and The Poem of the Month should
be judged by a person who is noted as a judge of good poetry. Someone who is
not involved with this Website, or a discrete administrative consultant of
poetry.
In perspective, poetry is any kind of writing put in the pretense of one's
thoughts, and most of all-- the reality of the write.
I'm to the point where I will go along with the congregation of the best
poets on this Website. Bless you, for you have the hardest decision of all.
There will always be change, for it is built into the concept of the world
and it's progression.
My prayers are with you all the way Keith; so just do what you have to do. I
honor the decision makers for their guidance.
Cleve (CDEEDS)
***
Thank you Cleve,
We may well bring in some outside critical reviewers as time goes on. In the
interim, we think we will allow members to vote anonymously for Poem of the
Week, and Poem of the Month. The recent Poem of the Year balloting went
pretty well, we think, and it seemed to level the playing field.
Whatever we finally do, we have the presence of mind to change our format as
experience dictates that we should.
Time, good member feedback, and the daily use of the website will guide our
way.
***
Dear Keith,
I love the reviewing system as is. I left Poets.com because it no longer was
a joy to read and review poetry there because of the complicated reviewing
form. However, statements made that poems receive higher ratings than what
they should have is entirely true, reason being one doesn't want to hurt the
feelings of people that are dear to us. And, again you are right, doing that
doesn't help the poet become better. On this point, I am of no help.
The accumulation of diamonds is important, but without definition, they
bring about blank stares. But, say "Poet Laureate" in an interview, and the
audience perks up. Most online sites have a certain number of stars, points,
or whatever to attain that title. Sad part is, even the most untalented poet
will accumulate the required number if they stick with it long enough. A
unique idea that I've never seen on any site I've been a member of would be,
a certain number of points are required, say 10,871 (ha ha). The poet then
has the option to submit never before posted poems in their choice of maybe
3 different styles to be reviewed by other members anonymously to insure
honesty, and to avoid hurt feelings. If scores are high enough on those
submitted, the title of Poet Laueate from the PoetsTree.com could be awarded
on a plaque with the Tree logo (or something of that nature). I do feel that
there should be some kind of a "test" rather than only an accumulation of
points.
Okay, enough blabbing of my thoughts.
Kathy
***
Dear Kathy,
You make some excellent points and observations. Our new scheme will allow
members to make awards in the customary fashion-- but will also provide a
means to cast anonymous ballots for additional recognition. Likewise,
reviewers will receive anonymous ratings from authors. Reviewers of merit
will also receive special recognition.
I agree with you about the status a special title confers. But while tenure
has merit, mere tenure ought not to be enough to merit a crown on one's
head. The idea of garnering a substantial amount of Diamond Awards does
however, particularly if the awards are truly meritorious. We will be
working towards that goal.
Perhaps, if our new format achieve it's goals, we may provide a means for
author / members to submit a selection of their poems for academic scrutiny.
If they pass muster-- we would be proud to confer a title of recognition. I
promise that we will give this excellent idea that attention it deserves.
Perhaps the community at large can provide some feedback on how we can best
accomplish such a thing.
***
Thank you for allowing us the input of our thoughts and ideas. I am an Ol
Blue transport, who left when it became so technical . I (like poetic chaos)
really don't feel like I am qualified to give any one less than a 9 or 10. I
always pay more attentions to the commentary that I receive from other
members, than what the Diamonds are that I receive.
I would love to see the Poetry In Motion be implemented at this site as
well, it is a very good creative tool for many..(myself included)
Once again, thank you for allowing our input. It means a lot to me to know
that our voices matter her at The Tree, and that is part of why I remain in
the family that I have discovered here......
chelle
***
Thank you chelle,
We do not intend for reviews to become more technical, only more honestly
helpful.
Our four scoring categories: Artistic expression, Composition,* *Originality,
and Language usage,* *are intended to be rather easy to make a personal
judgment on. We do not ask members to parse a poem into complicated
expressions of syllable count, rhyme or meter. At some point in the future,
we may provide an pathway where poets can submit for academic scrutiny. If
we do, we promise that such a pathway will be entirely optional.
We have had several false starts on a magnetic poetry interface. We have no
desire to knock off the competition. Our development goals have been
centered around a novel new interface that we can proudly call our own. So
far, it has been rather frustrating to accomplish, but we are committed to
providing a similar feature.
We would really appreciate some good member feedback in this area.
*
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